Winnie Holzman on What Connects ‘Wicked’ and ‘My So-Called Life’—and What’s Next (EXCLUSIVE)
Plus, hear how an in-the-works project might reunite the writer with 'My So-Called Life' star Claire Danes!
As the creator of the cult-favorite ’90s teen drama My So-Called Life and the writer of the script for the long-running Broadway hit Wicked and the cowriter of its recent blockbuster film adaptation, Winnie Holzman clearly has a knack for giving both small and large-scale stories an enduring emotional resonance. As different as they may initially appear, both projects have captured the hearts of multiple generations, and with the success of Wicked, the writer muses, “I’m feeling a lot of gratitude, and feeling like a lot of the work that I’ve been putting in for years has come to fruition. It’s a very meaningful time in my life.”
On April 7, Holzman will be honored by NYU Tisch School of the Arts as part of their annual gala. As a 1983 alumni of the school’s prestigious Graduate Musical Theatre Writing program, she says, “I’m very touched. That program meant the world to me, and I genuinely loved it,” and the award will be presented by none other than Claire Danes, who had her breakthrough role as the star of My So-Called Life. “The whole cast of the show is so amazing,” says Holzman. “We’re very proud to have made that together.”
Ahead of Holzman’s honor, the writer sat down with First for Women to discuss the surprising similarities between her most iconic creations, learning from musical greats like Leonard Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim, ’90s nostalgia and more.
First for Women: On the surface, TV shows and musicals seem so different. Do you feel like there’s a connection between them?
Winnie Holzman: People might think of them as being different, but they actually have a real relationship. Writing lyrics, writing the script for a musical and screenwriting all have a lot in common. The way that they’re related is that they’re all about writing for characters. I’m not writing prose. I’m not writing a novel. It’s all about character development and building a character and revealing truths about them in different ways.
It all has to do with boiling something down to its essence. When you’re writing the book to a musical, when you’re writing lyrics, when you’re writing a screenplay, you tend to not go on and on and on in a discursive, endless way. You have to find ways to say what you want to express. I don’t want to make it sound like a rule, because there are no rules with creative writing, but when you get something down to its essence you say something in one line, or one lyric or one word. With a screenplay, it’s the same. You have to find a way to say a lot with as few words as possible.
Writing a musical is also very collaborative, but so is writing for the screen. Everything I’ve ever been involved with has been very like that. I’ve always been the kind of writer who spends some time alone, but then has to come together with others and find answers. Everything has to be a great ongoing conversation.
FFW: Do you see any common themes between ‘Wicked’ and ‘My So-Called Life’?
WH: With both Wicked and My So-Called Life, it’s not so much about female-driven stories, because there are all kinds of ways a female character could show up and drive a story—it has to do more with the feminine principles of compassion and empathy. When I say feminine principles, those aren’t exclusively the province of women, but it has to do with living in a world that’s pretty harsh and puts a lot of emphasis on violence as a way of solving things, and has a certain mockery of feelings and sensitivity.
That’s the culture we live in, but I don’t believe that all people are like that. When you’re living in a culture that prizes those ideas, if you encounter something where there’s a lot of positivity, compassion, kindness, nurturing, lifting each other up, and a story of finding a way to stand up to forces of cruelty and bullying—I think people are hungry for that. People can find a sense of relief in stories that celebrate those qualities rather than denigrating them.
FFW: How does it feel to see what strong emotional connections people have to ‘Wicked’ and ‘My So-Called Life’?
WH: I feel grateful that both of these projects reached people in that way. I’m reluctant to try to explain these things, because there’s a mystery to it, and I’m the last person in the world who would be in a position to explain it.
The way I operate is I just try to live in the present and try to do my best with anything I’m writing at the moment. I try to put it out there with as few expectations as possible and let go of the results, so that I can best handle whatever does happen. I’ve written plenty of stuff that either didn’t get produced or that people didn’t respond to in quite the same way. Part of my job is to not be too concerned, and not spend too much mental energy on how it’s being received.
FFW: What kind of creative inspiration did you find in your musical theater studies?
WH: My experience in NYU’s musical theater program was a turning point in my life. The teachers were the great artists of their time, and I got to work with the luminaries of musical theater, like Arthur Laurents, who wrote Gypsy and West Side Story and Leonard Bernstein, an icon among American composers. Stephen Sondheim and Hal Prince came in for a seminar, which was amazing, and Jule Styne, Betty Comden and Adolph Green taught a class.
We were absolutely blessed. The fact that these incredible artists were giving us their thoughts and critique and taking the time to care was such a lesson about what really matters in life. They all wanted to give back, and not one of them was retired at the time. They were all very busy with their careers, but they took the time to have a huge influence on all of us. They were legends, but they treated us with such respect. They honestly told us what they thought, and they really cared. Their genuine caring and the way they took us seriously and wanted to help us learn really made an impact.
Being in that program really influenced my writing, because it helped me understand that I could be a writer. I think for a lot of writers, what distinguishes us often is that we question whether or not we’re really a writer. People who are not writers might go, “Yeah, I can write.” But when someone’s a writer, they often spend a lot of their life questioning, “Am I really a writer?” That was certainly where I was at when I started, but encountering these amazing teachers, mentors and fellow students was life-changing for me, and it helped me take myself more seriously as a writer.
FFW: ‘My So-Called Life’ captured the youth culture of the early ’90s so perfectly. Was that something you were thinking about while you were writing it, and do you have any nostalgia for that era?
WH: I was really thinking in terms of interpersonal relationships, people’s emotions and people’s secrets that they’re keeping—the same things I’m always thinking about whenever I’m writing a script. I wasn’t really focused on the era, because I was just living in it.
I do miss things. Back when I was doing My So-Called Life, there was no social media and no cell phones. I don’t want to be idealizing it, but there was a much more private feeling. When we were shooting that show, we were really in a bubble. People didn’t know about it. There was no paparazzi. There were no people tweeting about it. There weren’t people constantly talking about it online. In fact, the internet was kind of invented while we were doing the show. I remember someone rushing into my office and saying, “There’s this thing called chat rooms, and they’re talking about our show!” It was very new and exciting, but we were also like, “Huh?”
In many ways, I had to block it out, even though the feedback was touching, with a lot of people saying how much they loved the show. I didn’t want to get too involved. I wanted to be focused on what we were doing and not be too focused on how people were responding, because in the end, I don’t think that helps me too much.
If I’m nostalgic about anything, it’s about a time when you didn’t carry your phone around, and your phone was a thing that sat on a table in your house. It wasn’t this constant stream of being in touch with everyone in the world.
I do know that there are a lot of great things that have come from technology, and the response online to the Wicked movie has made us so touched and thrilled. People have responded with so much imagination, and we love the funny memes and responses that they’ve created. They’re amazing, and we’ve shared them with each other, so I love that part, but there are upsides and downsides.
FFW: 30 years after ‘My So-Called Life,’ you’re working on another TV show with Claire Danes. What has that been like?
WH: Claire has remained a very close person in my life. We’re both really excited at the prospect of working together again. We’re not in production yet, so anything can happen. There’s a lot of uncertainty in this business—there always was, but there might be even more now. But we’re hopeful. I’ve been writing it, and I’ll just continue to write it until people say I have to stop and it’s not going to get made, but hopefully they will make it. Claire and I are very eager, and we have such a special connection.
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